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Tom Pephrey very interesting year you've had in quarantine. Basically your career has exploded while we've been, um, sheltering in place.

Yeah. It's been, it's been a really crazy time, hasn't it? Yeah. So, right. So the quarantine sort of starts in, in, in the middle of March and, you know, the beginning or middle of March, and then Ozark comes out like two weeks later. And, uh, it seems like everybody's watching it.

Boom! Like what was so great about that show is, I love that show, obviously. There's just, so the characters are fantastic. The story's great. And, and I'm, you know, selfishly a huge fan of Jason's and Laura's, and, you know, being introduced to Julia Garner, what a talent, uh, she is as well, but what was so great, it was season three and people like rediscovered the show or discovered the show and then just binged it all the way through. And the numbers were incredible. And I think as everyone can agree, you were really the star turn in season three because you just gave it such an influx of, of energy and gave the women a lot to play off of which I loved as a, as a weakness, kind of Achilles heel for Wendy, but also seeing her softer side. And then as a love interest for Ruth was incredible. So let's just talk a little bit about Ben and then let's talk a little bit about how Tom became Ben.

Okay. Okay. For sure.

I know you've said before that, you know, and as an actor, you have relationships with casting directors cause you go in repeatedly and audition again and again and again, and you meet each other and know each other and you kind of got tapped that way here for Ozark, right. It came from a long standing relationship with a casting director you'd known from the beginning of your career. Am I right?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh, Alexa Fogel. Yeah. Somebody I've known since, I guess I was since I was like 24 years old. Yeah.

Tell me about just getting to be Ben.

yeah, it, it, I mean, you know, I was also a fan of Ozark before I had anything to do with the show. Um, I guess when the second season came out on Netflix, I binge watched both of them within a week, you know, and I just loved the show. I love the characters. I love ---  Jason and Laura, obviously just everything about the show, the tone of it, that crazy violence, the sort of heightened reality and the, the, the tension with the comedy, you know, and that was the part of it that I couldn't believe that they were continuously able to pull to -- They were maintaining a sort of menace and the sort of believable threat. Um, and yet, I mean, I was laughing out loud all the time. Like even when crazy things were happening, there's something about it. That was also very darkly humorous, which I think is such a cool tone to have, but a really hard tone to write and a hard tone to play, so credit to them. So then, yeah, when, when Alexa reached out to me about, uh, the possibility, you know, coming in to read for this role, which would be Laura Linney’s brother, I was really excited. Um, not only as a fan of the show, but just a huge fan of Laura. Um, you know, I remember one of the, one of the first Broadway shows I saw was sight unseen, starring Laura Linney, you know, um, and, and I've seen her obviously  in her movies and for TV shows and just an actor that I really, really admire and look up to. And, um, so yeah, it was kind of like, great. So I go in and read for Alexa and, um, we put some scenes on tape and a few weeks later I get a call and they say I have the job.

Well, it's a great, and I think fans of the show, why you're excellent in, in this series. You're excellent as Ben. Um, we all feel like we discovered you, even though we know you've been acting like you said, since you are 24, but part of that is just the depth of this character. And he, at first, we, we, when we meet you, you have that great scene, which I have to say I was on the side of the teacher, even though it was like inappropriate and you’re like what's everybody texted. It was such a great opening for a character. Did you, was that the first scene you shot as Ben? Or how did that come in the order of, of the scene of the season?

Yeah, that's actually, um, I think, I think, no, it wasn't the first scene I shot. It was very early though.  which was cool, you know, for the most part, we got to do things pretty sequentially, at least until the, until the end, but, um, yeah, I think it was either my first day or my second day, I was running out of the Bird  house, um, completely naked, whooping as I ran towards the Lake. And it was like, my first scene was just an easy scene on the patio, but it was with Laura and Janet, and Jason was directing and it was like, okay, this is basically, you know, I mean, this is my first day at work and I'm with the three, you know, it's sort of the leads of the show, but it was so great because they were all so cool and it was laid back. I was like, wow, is this really how this job is going to be? And then the next day, yeah, I'm, I'm running naked out of the house whooping. And it's like, after these two days, I feel, I feel like we've broken the ice. Like I can be comfortable here

That's gotta be tough when you're, I mean, ah, when you're like the new kid on the show, it's like the first day in school, you know, you're meeting everybody, that's been together for several years and you've gotta be like, hi!

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it certainly can be tough, but they, you know, everybody on that show is, does such an amazing job of creating this atmosphere where I, I really mean it, like after the first day, I felt like I'd been there with them the whole time, you know? And I think that that is, I think that that's everybody on the set, but I really think that's kind of, it makes sense that it's really reflective of Jason and Laura in particular, you know, cause they've been doing this for so long and they're such professionals. And I think because they're really good at what they do, they also understand the best environment to get the best work from the most people, you know, like it's, it's a very smart, conscious, like, so not only is it more enjoyable, but I also think it's more conducive to like a positive and productive work setting. And I feel like, um, you know, Jason in particular as executive producer and stuff is, is very, I think he's very conscious of that in a, in a kind of beautiful way. So they were both so cool to me. I, I felt like I belonged there.

Well, let's talk about Ben because your character is bipolar and that's not something that is upfront. Obviously we know he's a little eccentric from that opening scene. Uh, but it's something that explains itself as the series goes on. So tell me about how, as an actor, you wanted to approach that and also the sensitivity around mental illness and making sure you had, you know, accuracy around what it means to function as a bipolar person in the world.

Yeah, well, there's, there's, there's a few facets to it. So one of it is of course, you know, as much as I can, I want to learn as much as possible about, bipolar disorder, uh, just in like a technical sense, like just exactly what is it? what's happening? What are some of the symptoms? How is it diagnosed? What is the medication that's used? What are the side effects of the medication? I found this really great book it's called an Unquiet mind by Kay Redfield Jamison.

. And it's called an Unquiet mind and it's written by this woman, I think in the late seventies, but she had an onset of bipolar when she was a teenager. She talks about how it affects her life as she gets older, her relationships, her job, her schooling when she was younger. Every aspect of her life is touched. And also she's a doctor, she's a mental health professional, and she was, and is focused on bipolar disorder.

So you sort of get this, um, multilevel walk through someone's experience where on the one hand it's sort of like a very personal journal, almost like she's sharing with you. Um, what our first manic episode felt like and like how the people around her were responding to our behavior. And then she shares the first time that the depression really hit after a manic episode and what that felt like, and sort of the progression of how these things come on and how it's affecting everyone around her and how her life is starting to become unmanageable simultaneously. She's the doctor retelling the story and explaining what's actually happening and why, and when she starts on the lithium, what that does. And  so like super great, helpful resource, amazing took notes, underlined highlighted, kept it with me all the time. It was like my go to what's the name of the book again, it's called an Unquiet mind by Kay Redfield Jamison.

Um, and it was just one of those every now and then you find a resource or whatever, when you're working on something that you're like, wow, this is almost too good to be true because it has everything it has. It helps you understand what a person might be going through and also is helping you understand in a very objective way what's, what's actually happening. So then the second thing is, is that just like anything, just like anything, but for certain, any kind of mental illnesses,is  like every person is different, you know, it's not, you, you, you don't just say, Oh, that's, that's bipolar, that's depression. It's like, no, that's a human being. Like their experience of that is going to be different. Like, it would be different for you than it would be for me, you know? And so like, that's so important. Like first and foremost, that's, this is a human being and like, who are they?

You know, like what do they stand for? What do they believe in? What, what, what makes them laugh and what makes them sad and what, what would set them off just like what was happening? So then you, I think that's the most important thing is like, you’ve got to find that so that you're not playing some idea of a, of a mental illness, because that to me is just reductive and also just not true. Um, so it's like the book was helpful to understand, um, this woman's experience and, um, understanding what was going on, but it's like, well, that's not necessarily would be Ben's experience, you know? So like take what you can take and then make you're leaving room for Ben to just be the character that he is, the human being that he is and understand that the, you know, that the disorder can plan him in, in ways that were different from Kay.

And then, and then the final sort of main consideration with these things is like, no, you never want to force any of those thoughts on to work. You know, because ultimately, like, I, I, I believe that we're there to serve the story and like the writers are giving us the story and, and the writers like Chris Mundy's writer's room clearly had like a very good, in my opinion, what do I know? I thought they had a very good understanding of, um, bipolar disorder and like a real sensitivity. And they were really intelligent how they worked it into the script. So then it was like, okay, you do all this research and then you get the script and then you understand what they're asking of you. And then you bring to it what you can and leave the rest aside rather than like, no, this is how this would go. I read this thing, I know this research, I know this blah, blah, blah. It's like that. Doesn't that doesn't matter if it's it's useful to me. It's also interesting to me and I'm grateful for all the reading and learning regardless. And then you naturally sort of bring what the scripts are asking you to bring, rather than in my opinion, trying to force anything on top of the scripts, based on what you've sort of gone away and learned, you know,

Well, your character is maddening as a fan, because half the time you're like, Oh, Ben, he's the best~ And then you're like, kill him,  I can’t stand him --- kick him out of the house! I've never personally, and I know I'm not alone because millions of people watch this millions of millions, but that kind of, you are basically kind of the audience in this show because you're calling them out on, on the, you know, the insanity of their lives. And, and like, this is madness and everyone just, you know, the beauty of the show is you just treat it as a normal day. You know, Wendy just happens to be a soccer mom. That's also a money launderer and eventually a drug King pin. So I love, I love that aspect of Ben coming in and it's almost like his, his mental state allows him to speak that truth. But through the course of you gotten, you must, obviously the character is, um, has, you've been singled out for your performance and character in particular for what it brings to this show, but what's been some of the most interesting or touching feedback that you've got?

yeah. I mean, yeah, I feel a little emotional, but it's just the, you know, I've gotten an and I, and I, and I haven't even read everything I'm sure, but I just try and pay attention to some messages on social media. And, uh, a lot of people just reaching out and saying that either bipolar disorder or something that maybe they are, um, living with and negotiating, or that they have family members, um, who are. A friend’s Aunt reached out in a more, you know, personal way. And I spoke to her and she was, uh, one of 15, a large family. And I guess growing up, they had, uh, two brothers who were struggling with mental illness and unfortunately, uh, you know, they lost their brothers and, you know, she said that watching the show felt like that, and like really, she said she was really upset, but in a way that felt good to cry and good to get it out. And like, you know, you hear stuff like that. Doesn't even feel like, I dunno, it's just like that, that's if you, if that can happen and I'm not saying I did it, I'm saying the show did it, but if that can happen for people where they're watching these stories and there's like some element of healing or relating, or feeling heard, feeling seen, having your experience honored in a way that they find believable or moving or relatable, that's pretty amazing, that’s to me the coolest part of what we get to do.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it, it, yeah, I have nothing more to say to that other than I'm I'm happy part of me is it is so great when you see this representation, uh, on screen basically, and how important it is to represent, uh, you know, people that have all, everything, runs the gamut. And I think a mental illness is one of those things that is, is equally as important. Um, I want to talk about Laura Linney and you mentioned her earlier because she is a national treasure. We do. I mean, I, it was really great when I interviewed her. I had her on the podcast earlier and her comment was very, it was so Laura, because it was just so humble, but she's like, can you believe it? I'm still here! I'm still doing it. She was like, even like, surprised herself, which I just love because it's just so her, you know, every day she wakes up grateful just to be working. But specifically as an actor, what is most rewarding about working with her? And you guys had some very intense scenes and I can imagine the prep for that and to maintain that intensity and energy, uh, has its own challenges. But can you just walk me through a little bit about what it is to actually be in a scene with her?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, first, first and foremost, what I was saying before about how welcoming they are. And so Laura in particular immediately just came right up to me with a big smile and gave me a hug. And, you know, just within five minutes, um, sort of, um, diffused any possible tension there could be because this is someone I admire so much and have watched for so long, you know, she got rid of any sort of nervous or like star struck kind of energy that I could have because she just came right up. And we just started talking about our lives and these characters, and again, within five or 10 minutes, I just felt like we'd known each other for a very long time. And that was all initiated by her. And there is a real, and this is something that carried on throughout working together.

There's just more, With Laura there's a real, generosity of spirit, you know, she's a very giving person, um, and very supportive. she works really hard. She's so smart. She's so smart and she's so sharp, but she doesn't wear that. You know, like she leads with, with kindness, she leads with a kind of generosity and it's, um, I mean, it's just so great to be around people like that, because those are the people you want to emulate, you know, and Jason, in his own way is also just an incredible example of the kind of person that you want to be, in my opinion, in this business, you know, um, both of them are, are different, but similar in the sense that like they are exemplary colleagues and sort of leaders, but yeah, so with Laura, like having said all those things and then feeling really comfortable with her and at home with her and connected to her, um, what that does, is it like one, I think it, it can start to show up on screen because we're supposed to be playing brother and sister and we know each other our entire lives, I grew up together and like I had all these crazy adventures as kids and all this love and anger and hate drama and history.

And it's like, well, you know, you could sit in a room with another actor and spend a month talking about that. And it might not matter if you don't like the person you guys can plan out every, you guys could plan out what you had for lunch in 1993, but it's like, it doesn't matter to me, whatever, like what's the energy with the person, you know, and sure, it's good to talk about some things from the past, because that can be helpful with your imagination and also being on the same page about like how you're coming at, things like that. Just the energy between the two people. And I just love Laure, you know, I mean, just, I just so impressed by her. I respect her so much, um, while her sense of humor, um, I just really liked that human being. And so getting to come to work with that really helps the brother sister dynamic and really helps the work atmosphere.

And then, you know, you have an amazing actor, like all of that stuff aside, you have an incredible actor and you always want to be working with the best actors possible because they make you better. You know, so how it shows up is like being in, being in a scene and you do all your work, you show up prepared, and then the cameras start rolling. And all of a sudden you're working off Laura Linney and what she's doing. I didn't expect, I wasn’t sitting at home knowing, well, well, Laura, will do this scene like this. Like, she's Laura and I'm not. So here's, she is doing something you don't expect and you really take it in and it changes your performance and it changes you. And all of a sudden you're surprised the scene is like a slightly different thing or sometimes a hugely different thing than you imagined it was on your own.

And that is a result of working off your partner, having an incredible partner to work off of and feeling so safe, to take risks, be vulnerable and fail. You know, like some of those scenes in the van. I remember the one scene in particular where we're just kind of all over the place and eating French fries and stuff like that, that there were just some moments, you know, like we'd done a few takes of the scene and the scene was kind of one certain way. And it almost felt like we might be having a rhythm in that way. And then the next time we did the scene, just a way Laura said something just kind of dropped in on her. And then that affected me and all of a sudden there's emotions. And there's a response that I was not anticipating at all I hadn't planned on.

I hadn't even thought about. And then, and then the scene plays out a different way and it's like, Whoa, you know, I mean, those are the gifts. Like that's, that's what you want every time. Like if you can go home and be like, man, I had no idea that that scene was that like, hopefully not in a bad way, but like, Whoa, but in a good way of go home, like, man, I had no idea the scene helped. Like I thought, I thought for sure, we were getting three levels out of that scene and we got five, you know, like that's, that's, that's really what you want. And those are the kind of gifts you get when you work, when you work with an actor like Laura Linney Cause she's amazing. And not only is she amazing, she's generous. Like there's a version of, of, there's a version of that level of talent that could be selfish, you know, but she's got the talent and the generosity. And so like, she's amazing and she's making the people around her better. I'm like, in my opinion, that's the way to be.

Well, it's, it's, what's great too is you get to play off of both. So you have Laura, who's this living legend, basically, three decades in the business and then Ruth who's played by Julia Garner. And this is essentially her first big role really. I mean, she's came out of the bat as Ruth several years ago, uh, with very little experience. I mean, obviously she's gone on to do some things since, but talk to me about, about Julia, because she's another, uh, national treasure in the making basically. Yeah.

She sure is!

And your relationship with her really makes her 360 for the first time. Kind of. we get to see her real vulnerable side, which, you know, the previous two seasons, it was about how tough she was and how no one could penetrate --  just took shit from no one and now comes along this guy and it's a completely different side of Ruth. So how was that working with her?

She's just a blast. Like we had so much fun together. She was obviously, again, somebody I came in with a lot of respect for, I loved her performance on the show. I just thought she was incredible. I was like, Oh, who’s this person. Where’d they find her, you know? and so yeah, it was great meeting her. She was another one, extremely generous, reached out to me. Um, as soon as she knew I was going to be on the show, introduced herself, so friendly, so kind. Um, and, and just an amazing sense of humor, you know, like a lot of our time spent together was spent laughing, doing fun things. Also with Charlie who plays Wyatt, because the two of them are, are, are sort of, yeah.

Uncle Ben. You're like uncle Ben, right?

Yeah.Totally. 

You created a lot of love and a lot of wreckage at the same time.

That's right. That's right. Both ends of the spectrum and not much in between. yeah, yeah. So, no, she is wonderful. And then in another and another actor that I just really admire the work ethic, you know, like Julia puts in the time, she puts in the work, she takes it really seriously. Um, she works really hard. She shows up prepared like everybody on that set does. And it's really cool. Cause again, not always the case, you know? Um, and it's, especially, not that I'm surprised, but it's especially impressive when younger actors are being that disciplined with themselves.  I think it says a lot about Julia and obviously she's so talented. Um, and obviously she's having all of this great success that is so much deserved, but she's still working really hard, you know, and that's, that's really cool.

And Jason is like a machine.I mean, he's unbelievable with, as an executive producer Director Star

you know, he's, he's unbelievable. And you think about his career. I mean, I don't know when you first noticed Jason Bateman.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm obviously like super aware of him with arrested development because that show is just so, it's just so funny, but I really kind of fell in love with him in a different way when I saw the movie that he directed, I didn't even realize he directed it the first time I watched it, but the kid and the spelling bee.

Yeah. Bad spelling I think. Or, uh,

Yeah, yeah. Like bad words or bad spelling or something like that. Yeah. And I love that movie so much. And then I found out he directed it. I was like, Oh my God, who is this guy? And then I get hired on Ozark and I go on a little internet dive. And I find out that Jason directed his first episode of television when he was 18 years-old. I mean, just amazing! And then, you know, when I, when I first get on set Jason, this season, uh, directed, uh Ozark, season three, episode one and two. So I wasn't in episode one, but episode two, one of my first days at work, we're in the yard filming the scene and it's like Janet and Laura and me and, uh, Sophia and, uh, and, uh, Jonah and, and, and Jason's there, and he's got his iPad so he can see the different camera shots.

And Jason's also in the scene. And then he's going around talking to the cameras, giving them notes. Pulling the actors aside, giving them notes on the scene. Ot's like a four page scene, then he walks inside, all of this happening, looking at the iPad to make sure the shots are okay,  makes the face like he's happy with it. Closes it, throws it down, looks over, sees me, who's got to enter the scene later and then starts telling me a joke, while they're like, 5, 4, 3, 2  rolling, And he’s like whatever blah, blah, blah, laughing And then they’re like Action! And then he turns and goes and does the whole scene! And I'm like, what?!

And he does it flawlessly, never misses a line, never like, you know, and, and it's like, man, that, that guy's ability to not only to multitask, which is so impressive, but to multitask in such an amazing way. Cause he's like an incredible director -- seeing the way that he does things. I mean obviously when Emmy last year, you know, like everybody thinks that, but also he never even got irritated. His blood pressure never rose, like there didn't seem to be stress about it, you know? And that was the part where I was like, Oh man, is this guy even human? Like how is he managing all of this at such a high level and not at all seeming to be bothered at all with any kind of stress, any kind of anything like, so patient, so funny. So cool. So happy. Like, wow, just give me some of that!

I think it's like what you said about when your water rises to the same level and when there's some kind of toxicity on set that permeates the whole experience, but something, what's happening on Ozark, everyone's playing at their best possible level. And it just brings out the best performances, the best environment. And that really obviously starts with Jason, but it is incredible because everyone that is on the show says the same thing basically in their own way about, Oh, it's so much fun even though the material is so dark and there's a lot of violence, but they really enjoy the experience and being in, you know, shooting in Atlanta and the long hours and the nights and all that stuff just doesn't wear the same because everyone's having so much fun just being with each other, regardless of the dialogue they're saying, or whatever's happening in the scene, there's just such joy in being with each other and, and in those down moments, as much as when you're, like you said, getting three, four or five layers out of a scene that you didn't expect.

And I think as an audience member, you pick that up, you pick it up, like you're in it

You  become part of that.

 Yeah. Yeah. And it, again, it just like, it's that invisible magic energy that translates to getting something extra good versus something just okay. You know, cause if the opposite thing is true and everybody's miserable and there's a lot of tension and yelling and nobody really wants to be there. Like everybody's a professional they’ll probably still show up and do their job, but are you going to do the extra take? Like are, or do you feel comfortable enough to try that thing in that scene that ends up making the whole thing pop? Like, those are the things that like you might, you might miss when you don't have that kind of magic atmosphere. And so, yeah. It's pretty special. I mean, it's, I couldn't believe, I kept waiting. Like what is somebody like somebody who's going to do something really bad now. Right? Like it can't be this good! Never happened! It was!

All right, Tom, let's take it back to the beginning. You are a Jersey boy through and through. Right. You grew up there, you went to Rutgers. Uh, you majored in drama. So I assume like, was it in college that you found your calling or was it earlier, was there some moment earlier in your life that made you want to be an actor?

Uh, it was in high school. It was in high school. Um, I, um, auditioned for a school play. I couldn't sing or dance. I still can't. I got a little role in pirates of Penzance. A little chorus part, was a little pirate. And um, the man who was directing the show, his name’s Steven Kasakoff --. Um, I thought it was just incredible. He was, he was so passionate and so disciplined and terrifying to me. He was scarier than the football coaches and, and so wonderful and smart. And um, I thought, wow, like this is really cool! And it just so happened that the public high school I was going to had a, had a performing arts sort of section in it that would start my second year of high school. And so after having that little experience on the play, I auditioned to be in the program as an actor and I got in, and it was just a confluence of a lot of things, it was like, I was good enough at it, you know, which was when you're a young person and you find the thing you're finally pretty good at like that's, that's a whole realization and revelation and finally some confidence and understanding and feeling valuable and all of these things that are so important for young people, which is why teachers are so important.

And then, and then yeah, having this man to really look up to who took everything very seriously, was very disciplined. He was strict. He had a great sense of humor and very loving as well, but like super talented, just a great mix for me personally. I was like, wow, this is not only something that I like to do, but something that I could take very seriously and like put my time and energy and thoughts into it. And this could be like a serious thing that I do. And so like in the presence of loving it, and learning from him and seeing his example, I was like, this is what I want to do with my life. And I say all that to say, like, I don't know if I'd have had a different experience at first where it was fun and I still liked it, but it was maybe just a bit of a fun side thing to do. Maybe I'd never would have occurred to me to even think that that could be like what I do with my life. Cause I wasn't really thinking, I wasn't thinking that before. Wasn't like, I was always like: I'm going to be an actor someday. And then I met him and of course that's what I did. Like I wasn't in my head so much. So he really changed my life in an amazing way. And then yeah, never looked back

And you, you got parts pretty much right out of college in soap operas, you're on guiding light. Right. That was one of them. And what's amazing to me is there was always this thought that it was much easier for women to break off of soap operas. Right? Historically, you had Meg Ryan who started as one Demi Moore's soap opera actress. And I know the list goes on and on, but for men they tend to be ironically more typecast, but that hasn't been your experience at all. I mean, you've got a lot of awards. I think, you know, obviously you guys won some Emmys  for your work there. What was that experience like for you in terms of furthering your education about the professional world of, of acting?

Yeah, well it was, you know, coming from the program in high school and then the training I got in college, you know, the college training was all theater, it's all theater based. You know, we, we went over to the globe and did Shakespeare in London and spent a semester there. The kids now go spend the whole year there. You know, it's amazing training, but it's not in front of a camera. It's not film and television, you know, so all of a sudden I'm on the soap, but I'm basically getting paid, um, to learn, to be in front of a camera, to like understand what it's like to have to show up on a set with lines memorized. And know where I'm standing and hit a certain mark and understand the rhythm of that. Now the soap is like learning that with the volume cranked all the way up, man, you shoot fast!!

You know, you gotta think Guiding Light  is like an hour long TV show, whatever, 48 minutes with commercials, whatever. So you have like these 60 page scripts and you're doing one a day! You know, like you're doing 60 pages a day! Like just to give everyone an idea of, of what that means is like, On Ozark you may be doing six pages a day. So you are literally churning out 10 times more content on the soap, you know, um, so yeah, I got, uh, amazingly good at memorizing lines really fast. I got really good at, at just trusting my instincts and kind of shooting from the hip. Um, I got an education for being in front of cameras. I also had a lot of people on that show that I looked up to, set a good example in terms of work ethic in terms of how you show up prepared, in terms of how they treated the crew and everybody else they worked with like Kim Zimmer Ron rains, just a really good atmosphere, I think for me to be in, in that regard.

And then, and then yeah, you know, uh, that, that also comes with its down sides because, uh, for the soap, you need to be able to work that fast. You need to be able to shoot from the hip like that, but that is not the ideal way to work. Like ultimately, like I was saying, you want to slow things down and you want to be able to do research. You want to be able to sit with things. Um, you want to be able to take your time and, and because the more you can do that, the kind of deeper you can go and the more personal it can get. And hence maybe the more interesting it can be. Um, so then leaving the soap was another adjustment, which was like great, learned all these things, great. Have all these tools in the toolkit. Great. This is really going to help with auditions. You know, if you get an audition late, like I can prepare that thing super fast and feel confident, even if it's ultimately not what I would do. It's like, that's a great tool to have, but then there was also unlearning and that had to be done. And, yeah, it's great though. I mean, it's, it's so exciting. Like every, every opportunity is presenting you with the possibility of learning and getting better,

I should say, actually you and Kevin bacon. Cause he also starred on, on guiding light. That's your six degrees of Kevin bacon right there!

Me and Kevin bacon, Alec Baldwin was on a soap.

Right, right. So there goes by theory, Right, right out the window. Uh, but all right. So you're also in another giant Netflix movie, uh, in the, in the Netflix wheelhouse with Mank, which is David Fincher's new film. That's coming later this year about Citizen Kane and the Mankowicz brothers. Obviously you play, which brother do you play? I play Joe, Joseph Mankiwicz Right. So I'm already like lighting up and drooling to watch this movie, um, having studied Citizen Kane and all of that, uh, in college and whatnot. I mean, when was the first time you saw a Citizen Kane?

You know, probably not until like 10 years ago, you know, it's been a while now and I've seen it again since, but I remember when I watched it, it was the feeling of like: sit down and watch this movie. You know, what I mean? Like, it didn't happen naturally. I was like, how have I not seen Citizen Kane yet? You know, but  man, it's incredible. You know, especially if you can really try and put your brain into what was happening back then at the time that this was made. Whoa!

Tell us a little bit about what we can expect and what your part is in this film.

Yeah. So I don't, I don't, I don't know how much I can or can't say, but, um, the movie is really about Herman Mankiewicz. So Herman is, so I play Joe, Herman is Joe's older brother, and Herman wrote the screenplay for Citizen Kane with Orson Wells, and the, the it's sort of a, a story about Herman and about his life and how it relates or is affected by his work on Citizen Kane. Sorry, I'm stepping out in non-chartered here -- you’ll hear me reaching for my words!  But I mean, it is, I got to see a rough cut of it. It is gorgeous, it’s all shot in black and white, it is so beautiful. And I mean, what a beautiful film too, in terms of content, the language, um, the performances are incredible and it's Fincher. So it's just, so it's, it's a really beautiful film. And I think, especially if you love Citizen Kane, I think it's a real, it's a real kind of in a way, a bit of a, like a love letter to, to writing and to what we do. And yeah, I think, I think a lot of people are going to really love it.

Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it because Orson Welles is one of those mythical figures, even though he was a very real person, it, he kind of lives in that other sphere of what, what is Orson Welles? And I, I really, I can't wait and obviously the Mankowiczs are a huge name in Hollywood. So this is, uh, yeah, I'm like I said, I am, um, I'm going to be drooling, but for how was it? Can you tell me a little bit about working with Fincher for you? How was that?

Yeah, it was, it was incredible! You know, I really think that that guy is a true master at what he does. And um, it's just, you know, again, like I was saying before, you want to work with the best people and learn everything that you possibly can. And like with David, amongst many things, I mean, incredible work ethic, insanely intelligent, super prepared, really funny, which surprised me, like a wonderful sense of humor. But, but one of the things that I almost couldn't believe was like realizing how good his eye was, like I believe he is seeing things with the kind of like sensitivity or sharpness that other people aren't, which might explain some of why he's so successful and good at what he does. Um, and so to just to just be around him and, you know, the, the, the, the, the story that everyone says like hundreds of takes, but it was like, yeah, we did a lot of takes, but I loved it. It was like, yeah, hi, we're at work. Please show up prepared. And while you're here, we're going to work. I'm like, great!

And like you said, I'm from New Jersey. I grew up like working outside. Like, it was like, yeah, we're here to work, let's work. But it's also like, you're working with this master director and he's letting you do all those takes like, well, what more do you want? You know, like I get to come here. I get to play. I get to play with Gary Oldman. Like I literally had that guy's poster on my wall when I was 18. Like I get to play with Gary Oldman and David fincher is going to come in and give us notes. Like, I don't care if we did 573 takes when we stop, my feeling is going to be, Ooo, could we do one more? Could we just do one more?. What more do you want than that? Like that’s my opinion. And so it was a really, really positive experience. And Gary Oldman is very much the things I was saying about Laura Linney. He's exactly in that mold, you know, and especially with Gary, like all the roles that he's played and, like, I didn't know what to expect. Is he going to be dark, is he going to be mysterious. Is he going to be be brooding. Is it going to be weird. And then he's just this lovely, smiling, sweet, witty, funny, very gentle person who was again, very generous. And, um, so yeah, major, positive experience last year was just a really good year. Like, damn, that was a good year!

I go back to my first question at the beginning of our conversation is like, you have all this momentum while we're basically running in place. You know, driving down the Hill to get service and, you know, um,

Yeah, yeah.

It is a crazy crazy  time. But, um, I'm, I'm thrilled for you because I feel like the momentum it's, it's all happening at the right time for you and your career. And it's super exciting to watch and to feel like you're an overnight sensation.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Great. And I always end my interviews by asking this, these questions, this question and particular, uh, to actors, because there are so many ups and downs, it's not a profession any parent, even parents that are actors recommend for their children. It's not one of those, like, yeah, you're going to go do that!  It's great. There's a lot of things you can't control. There's a lot of disappointments. And a lot of times the disappointments have a louder voice than, than the things that actually went well. You know, you tend to just remember the bad thing. So what kind of advice do you have for younger talent? Kind of whether they're starting out or, you know, the, how to navigate the ebbs and flows and the ups and downs and, and just the unpredictability of being in show business, whether that's on stage or on a soap opera, or in a series or on film, because you've done it all, you've done it all.

I've done it all. I've done a little bit of everything, that's that's for sure. But I think, I think that the way to say this is to say, you know, be, be very mindful of what you're sort of putting on your altar, you know. Be, be very mindful of what it is that you're in pursuit of, because there is so much about what we do and this business and this industry that is out of your control. It just is, you know, and I, I remember from a very young age being very conscious of saying to myself, I want to be the best that I can be at what I do. Like really focusing on what I could control. And there was a lot of hard times and hard years and so broke and not working and not getting jobs and feeling like a failure and feeling like:  what have I done?

Like, what did I choose to do? Like, you know what, when it said, you know, 14 meeting calves and I never looked back, it's like, well, God, the gift of not knowing better, not the gift of a sort of optimistic naivety or whatever, but, but really what it came back to is like in the crushing disappointments, in the feeling like you're going to fail or whatever, it's like, I can't control that. I can't control whether I get a job or not. So what can I control? I can control how good I am. What am I doing about that? What am I doing about that right now? You know? Yeah. I went to college and got great training, but it's four years later, what am I doing? Why am I not in a class? Why am I not finding the best teacher I can find?

And going to that studio and getting better? Am I, am I feeling good, physically in my body, whatever that is for you, like whatever body type you want is, is your body feeling good to you? Do you feel healthy in it? Do you feel comfortable in yourself? How is your mind, how is your mental health? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you, are you getting some exercise and reading some things and getting inspired by traveling or helping people or going to a museum? Like, are you creating, creating the optimal space for yourself wherein you can feel confident, productive, and creative, you know, because it's like, that's what you can control and controlling those things and trying to maximize those things has the effect of making it more likely that you will succeed. But like the real, the real trick is again, like, be careful what you put on your altar.

Like, what does that mean? It's like, what's on my altar isn't: I want to be rich and famous. You know, like that's not a thing to pursue that. That's like a thing that's like a byproduct of a lot of things going incredibly right most of which you don't control, you know what I mean? Like what, what can I put on that altar that makes sense that every day I can work towards and therefore feel empowered, therefore feel again, productive and healthy and good about myself. And it's like, I want to be the best that I can be at what I do. And like that is, I can self-evaluate that, I can be honest with myself about that. And there isn't a day that couldn't be working towards that goal, you know? And if you work towards that goal, chances are better than some of the other things you're going to get are going to be good and, and help you along your way, or whatever, like chances are, you'll get some more jobs.

Chances are, you'll have some money so that you're not in constant fear of not having and  a feeling of lack. And, but that, that, that's it, you know, and that, that's something I've thought a lot about, about over the years that I've gone back to Rutgers, I've gone back to my high school whenever I'm asked, because I want to try and give back to these, these programs and these kids. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about that, cause they are always asking like, what, what should I do when I graduate? What should I do? And I'm like, there's probably a lot of artificial advice that I could give you. Or maybe not. Maybe somebody else can, but what I would say is is this, that is just so vitally important in a profession where you're going to hear like, No way more often than you're going to hear Yes. Like even if you're Marlon Brando, when you're starting out, like, it's, you, you are, you are going to be rejected more often than you are going to succeed. And so know that and like, what do you need to do to be taken care of yourself? Where it's like, again, this took me years, but getting to a place with auditions where, where the, how I judged the audition was how I felt doing it. You know? And if I felt good, if I felt like I got to show up and live in the moment and do the work that I prepared and feel good about that, um, then that audition was a success. End of story. Whether I get the job or not, you know, and if I go in and I wasn't prepared for an audition, or if I wasn't prepared, as I should have been, then I go home and say, okay, regardless of whether I get that job or not, I can do better.

I can work on that. And, and that, again, just in all the ways, just focusing on what you can control and understanding the difference, because look, there's been plenty of times and I'm sure this has happened to everybody. Like you can go in and do an amazing audition and you're, you know, five foot 10, and they want someone who's six foot four, and you'll never know it. You will most likely, never find that information out. So now, now you're at home and you've done the best audition. You've done all of your work. You showed up so prepared and you just opened your mouth and that role sang, and then you get a call that you didn't get the job. And it's like, what do you do? What, what's the thoughts for most people? It's like: I failed. I messed up. I'm not good enough. I'm never going to get a job, blah, blah, blah.

Like maybe not. Maybe they want someone who's six foot four. Maybe they gave it to someone who's six foot four who wasn't as good as you were. And the thing is, is like, you'll never know, but decisions like that are made all the time. And so it's like, don't worry about that. You get the jobs. Eventually you'll get some jobs you won't get most, like that's not your business. That's not your business. Your business is do your work, take care of yourself, show up prepared. Like these are the things that you can control. There, there isn't a day that you couldn't be making yourself better along one of those continuums. You focus on that. You fill your time with that. I promise you good things will come.

Well, certainly good things have come your way. And I have to just, again, commend you on, on Ozark. You brought such humanity and complexity to Ben, and that's such a hard thing to do as an actor is to, to make someone unlikeable and likable simultaneously. So congratulations on that. And I love that I get to discover you!

Yeah.Thank you so much. 

It’s a real treat to talk to you.

Yeah.I really enjoyed our conversation.

And, and to get to know you, and I'm glad you're back in New York, um, makes me hopeful that, you know, hopefully we're heading, heading towards a good place in all of this.

Yeah, well, yeah, we're back. Me and my dog Blue. Um, we just went for a long walk. It is very hot today, but it is here in New York is here and it's. Okay.

All right. Well thank you so much, Tom.

Thank you Krista. Very much, right.

Outro

-- is streaming now on Netflix